Tony Spicer wrote:
Weights on Lycoming Panthers is difficult to come by. http://flywithspa.com/panther-completions/ Those with listed weights are before paint. Not sure just what "coming soon" means, as its been like that for quite some time.
Somebody has chosen to remove empty weights from the completions list, so I guess the only way to find out now is to ask somebody that's flying a Lycoming powered Panther.
I can only add what will be one data point but it will take some explaining to let you know what I have for my numbers. From the beginning of my build minimal,weight and a flyable cg(for me, my tastes, and abilities) were a top priority. I steered into the Titan(now Continental) IO-340 stroker. This is not supported by SPA and I knew this from the getgo. Many weight saving features and you can get the general idea looking at the Carbon Cub setup. Mine is similar but is lower compression, less HP, minus their proprietary sump but plus a few other goodies. In the end, I would not do it again as I believe that the weight savings are worth the added cost. I believe I only saved a few lbs. over a lightweight 0-320. I know of one build rapidly coming down the pike that may weigh less than mine.
Configuration: I installed a Dynon Skyview system without any bells or whistles in my panel using an avionics tray for the boxes similar to Tony Spicers. You can view his on his Picasa. As I have dual electronic ignition AND a Duplex fuel pump. My power is split so that there is a battery powering each Ignition system and fuel Pump for redundancy. Primary battery is mounted on the aft firwall. The secondary ignition and fuel pump battery, master relay, and my ADAHRS are mounted on a sub-tray just forward of the aft baggage on top of the upper longerons and combined weighs 8lb including the tray. Both of my batteries are EarthX ETX-36's about 4 lbs each. Most builders will not have this weight at that station but by having this keep in mind my engine has a clean magnesium accessory case. No Magnetos, fuel pump, vacuum pump, or cabin heat. I have the Sonex version of what I would loosely call a half Raven system on the firewall and my oil cooler is mounted on the firewall behind #3 with a butterfly valve so I can control the oil temperature. I love this and use it every flight when going from cruising at 135 to doing acro to keep the temp in the happy range. Probably weighs 3-4 oz. plus cable to cabin.
I came in at 814.2 empty weight. My scales were brand new but not certified scales. Their website stated that both were identical but the certified came with a "certificate" for added cost and needed if you are qualifying for a car racing circuit. My spin testing was done at 72.10" aft of datum and was very predictable and well behaved. I mainly fly in one configuration so my experience is only in the range of 72.1 to 73 inches aft of datum. I hope my notes are correct as my numbers are all out at the hangar. Initially, I was thinking I wanted my cg further forward. I was totally wrong. I love the way the Panther handles! I did my initial flights and then switched to a 4" tailwheel and no elevator counterweight for spin testing(-5 lbs). I have since added those back on the balanced Elev. weight(3 lbs) and changed to my 6" tailwheel(2 lbs). and still love it. It has room to go further aft in my opinion. How much? I don't know as mine is what it is and I will leave that to the test pilots. All I know is I love mine.
I am 6' 2" and 195. 210 with chute.I have the rudder pedals in the most forward position and my seat back and bottom is 3 and 4 holes from the furthest aft position. At my weight I can't carry full fuel but just over 3 hours worth of X-C fuel is plenty for me! If I need more I can go on a diet and lose 20 lbs. I have polished my AL and will not be painting.
During the process I had numerous talks with SPA and it's my hope and belief that they will be publishing some information soon so everyone has more guidance than from a hack like me. Maybe some of the other 0-320 guys will chime in soon. Meanwhile I hope this one datapoint is helpful in your planning. And I can't help but say the obvious no matter how corny it is... Keep building and pulling those rivets- It's worth it!
chuckkemp wrote:
Tony, looks like your empty weight will take a small hit too, what does that come to with the new ballast? Would be interesting to know what the Corvairs and Lyc's are seeing for empty weight too especially after final paint and did they have to shift anything around after paint?
Chuck
Chuck,
Weighed my painted airplane with digital racing scales, then shuffled the scales and weighed again with same results, so I'm confident 690 lbs is accurate. Add to that 40 lbs ballast, 200 lbs pilot, 156 lbs full fuel and 25 lbs baggage. That's 1111 lbs, 4 lbs under the 1115 lb max gross. Over 1115 lbs the LS will not make LSA stall speed.
Weights on Lycoming Panthers is difficult to come by. http://flywithspa.com/panther-completions/ Those with listed weights are before paint. Not sure just what "coming soon" means, as its been like that for quite some time.
Tony was the first person that I thought of when reading this news. However I was not expecting that he would have the problem as I thought his MM was made for the Jab. How much weight is going to be necessary to get the Jab powered Panthers in CG? I am thinking that the UL is a little heavier and would not require as much.
As a potential 350 user, I want to know what the plan is for these updated parts to be available. I am also looking at the Lyc, but now have real concerns that the same problem exists on the opposite end. With several lycs already flying, it sure would be good for the rest of us to know what our real options are.
Dan and Tony thanks for the replies as good info from you both. Maybe the UL 350 will look like its got a turbine on the front...
Tony, looks like your empty weight will take a small hit too, what does that come to with the new ballast? Would be interesting to know what the Corvairs and Lyc's are seeing for empty weight too especially after final paint and did they have to shift anything around after paint?
There will be another chunk on the front of the engine. At some point the brick on the engine mount will be reduced in size. Wanted to be closer to the center of the cg envelope for the first few flights. Not enough room to add it all on the front of the engine. Engine ballast is a machined shape and is more complex than the brick, and isn't yet here. DAR comes 5/5. First flight will happen after second ballast is installed. My guess now is total ballast will be in the 35 lb range when testing is complete. A bit lighter than the prototype and with more horsepower, so it should do just fine.
New setup will require longer mount and cowl. Ben Krotje will prototype it on his Panther.
Sorry to see all the lead you have to add. I thought you were adding it underneath and further forward, but you must have run out of room. Do you know how much further forward the new mount will be, to avoid the lead? Will the new mount require a new cowl too? I'm looking forward to your first flight.
The UL 260 is to light for the Panther if used on the current mounts. We are waiting for the first UL 350 powered aircraft to be weighed, but it looks like we will be moving the 350 forward 4-6 inchs and making a new cowl mold to maintain a wide usable CG range.
Dan
Dan Weseman
Designer
Builder
Test pilot
Panther 515XP
I see that SPA recommends the UL Power an alternate engine using the UL350iS 130 HP, which looks like a nice package. Since the 0200 is also a recommended option what's the thought in using the UL 260iS 107 HP engine, seems to me this would be a very good alternate? It appears from their drawing that the engine mounts are the same between the two models so I'm thinking it would be a bolt on solution to the current SPA mount.
I've been researching the Corvair engine and it seems like a good candidate but I want to use as much new items including the billet crank but when I add all the parts up its getting quite spendy and not so far from one of the other engine options. Would the Panther LSA's performance suffer greatly with a 100 HP engine? Thoughts?
